Curse

kaya · May 16, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

my 2 cents: so called professionists are always going to be around... Theese people in my observations are those who sit higher up on the ladder then new players who are nieve about most things, and lower on the ladder than those who know a great deal about the game. Every single profession have their "moments of glory" in this game, depenging on the situation. When more people understand where a specific profession fits into pve or pvp builds, then we'll start to see less and less professionists.

It was this way for a while with prophecies too. At first there were tonz of warriors that were making themselves known all over the board, then all the sudden people learned how to become anti-warriors and developed builds to counter such warrior builds. Warriors were dropped so quickly, and you were almost laughed at if you had a w/mo cause everyone had them. It was even hard to find groups if you were a warrior. Then people learned a little more, and noticed how important warriors could be in a build.... Then along came IWAY, and warriors were back on top again. It's kinda a learning game. If you think a certain profession is worthless, then chances are you dont yet fully understand it's potential.

Sanji · May 16, 2006, 09:21 PM // 21:21

I think it's less about professions and more that in a PuG, people mostly want to compensate for playing with strangers by getting as many self sufficient (Warrior/Monk), staple (Monk), or flat out overpowered builds (Minion Master*) as they can.

It's part of the nature of online roleplaying games when it comes to strangers getting together to accomplish something. If what you play doesn't meet a certain criteria, you are generally going to be reduced to being a warm body when it comes to PuGs. It has nothing to do with elitism or anything like that, you are not being persecuted for expressing yourself in a video game. There is very little to prove to most random people in (whatever) outpost what is qualified other than popular opinion. You're not going to change someone's viewpoint from past experiences by going "assassins 0wn you guys plz invite".

It is a close minded way of thinking about things. However, when people are making groups, it's not about trying something new, it's about beating that mission and going on with the game.

*I say this not as a complaint, being a Minion Master player myself. Despite the minion cap, 10 minions is still enough to almost trivialize most regular PvE content.

outferno · May 16, 2006, 10:00 PM // 22:00

If you guys have ever played other MMO's (I'm sure you have) then you'll notice the popular PVP classes are not very popular in PVE.

This being said, when I was a big DAoC player (Bors Hibernia), no one ever wanted to group with me to pve so I could level to 50 (I was a ranger). Everyone figured the ranger wasn't spec'd very well for anything. He either spec'd in bow with self buffs or got his butt kicked in melee by another class. Well, I spec'd differently and once I made level 50, I was wanted in groups for keep defenses and overtaking keeps.

That's just the nature of the beast. With the assassin class, you can gank people in pvp (I've done it many times in alliance battles, people roam around will usually get assassinated). In pve groups, it's a bit harder to do anything - you're an up close damage add. It's hard to please everyone, but I'm sure that more people will be willing to take you into a group in the future. For now, you're pretty much going to have to hench it or go with guildies.

Ken Dei · May 17, 2006, 12:43 AM // 00:43

Indeed, Assassins, by their very nature, are far more useful in PvP then PvE.

There's just so much in the AI of the PvE mobs that conflicts with the style of play required for an Assassin to survive.

If you escape, aggro control gets broken, which can lead to team wipe, and if you tank you'll probably die, which till break aggro control, which can lead to team wipe.

It's not a flaw in the Assassin, but in the fact that the other team members are far less mobile. They can't keep up with the shifting aggro caused by the Assassin to compensate.

If Assassins have a place in PvE it's going to be in places with lots of tight spaces where another Warrior can hold aggro after they retreat.

Maria The Princess · May 17, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

i love mesmers. me and guildies did a queen farming build:

ranger : barrage, interrupts, pet
ranger : poison arrow,pet,traps
monk/Me: hight domination, some healing (we would go Me/Mo, but nobody had an pve mesmer)

works like a charm

Str0b0 · May 17, 2006, 01:22 AM // 01:22

Well honestly I t hink that they sort of overlapped with the assassin and ritualist skills too much. Not an overlap with each other mind you but an overlap in what the professions are designed to do versus the other professions in the game. Ritualist for example. Spirits aren't nearly as useful as mobile minions, at least the ones that actually attack. As for the other spirits a monk can do the same job but better. Assassins are extra melee damage dealers but a warrior can do the same job with a higher damage output,yes I'm aware of chained combos but a good warrior can still do at least half again the damage output of an assassin. Mesmers have always been godly interrupters but in my opinion the mesmer profession was designed for PvP. Conditions, hexes, interrupts Oh My! I think assassins and ritualists will ultimately be relegated to secondary professions at best. I think this is mostly due to Anet's maddening insistence on putting foam on all the sharp corners of everything. I bet these guys played great in early beta and alpha versions. They probably had some really useful skills and then, in the name of balance, gone. I'm just not overly impressed with the capabilities of the assassin profession, nor the ritualist for that matter but assassins were specifically addressed in this topic. They seem to lack synergy with the other professions. I tried to make one and I sat down and looked at the skills and then looked at the other professions and I have to admit I was at a loss. I couldn't find a good secondary to go with assassin aside from maybe monk for protection and healing spells. Warrior tactics is another maybe but they don't have the energy pool to support a caster secondary, at least not to any useful degree. Now granted you can use the assassin primary to get criticals but other than that there is very little in the way of synergy between assassins and the core professions. Assassins seem to only have good skill synergy within their own skill set which is just flat out stupid in my opinion. It's alsmost as if ANet wanted to try to put a stop to some of the tactics used in the more effective builds from prophecies, where a primary and secondary skill just meshed to form a magical combo, which again to me is counter-productive. I don't hate assassins I just have no use for them in a group. There is nothing they can do well in my opinion that another profession can't do better.

afkkiller · May 17, 2006, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by quickmonty

I disagree with that statement. Assassins are great at getting into the back line and taking out healers and other casters. Actually, no profession is "needed" to complete missions and quests. A good mix is usually the best strategy.

Rangers are nicer for that with interrupts and range so they don't do anything
stupid like going up messing up aggro and dying.

Kai Nui · May 17, 2006, 03:20 AM // 03:20

Er, Guildwars has been out for a long time now. These so called "Professionists" already exist and have existed way before factions came out. As long as people have oppinions and the human race is full of imbeciles, there will be people who hate something.

FYI: I'm a mesmer, I really don't find it that hard to find groups, partly because I have 95% Map and Tyrian Protector on my belt to show off. People think the general player stinks, but if they have some kind of title or proof, then it seems to turn it around.

"...well he didn't get this title by being a suck-ass player..."

EDIT: Str0b0, you're a Sancho Panza, use some paragraphing and stuff, jeeze.

EternalTempest · May 17, 2006, 04:47 AM // 04:47

Str0b0 -> In the radio interview they stated Sin/Rit are "specialized" where the core jobs are more versitle (by design). They even mentioned that they may be harder to play. Staying within there skill lines makes sense to me at least for me.

Rit are a great support role, and Sin are great for suprising soft targets and messing them up and blinking out of there before too much heat shows up.

I would expect C3 to be the same situation with there two new jobs.

Dove_Song · May 17, 2006, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Well honestly I t hink that they sort of overlapped with the assassin and ritualist skills too much. Not an overlap with each other mind you but an overlap in what the professions are designed to do versus the other professions in the game. Ritualist for example. Spirits aren't nearly as useful as mobile minions, at least the ones that actually attack. As for the other spirits a monk can do the same job but better. Assassins are extra melee damage dealers but a warrior can do the same job with a higher damage output,yes I'm aware of chained combos but a good warrior can still do at least half again the damage output of an assassin. Mesmers have always been godly interrupters but in my opinion the mesmer profession was designed for PvP. Conditions, hexes, interrupts Oh My! I think assassins and ritualists will ultimately be relegated to secondary professions at best. I think this is mostly due to Anet's maddening insistence on putting foam on all the sharp corners of everything. I bet these guys played great in early beta and alpha versions. They probably had some really useful skills and then, in the name of balance, gone. I'm just not overly impressed with the capabilities of the assassin profession, nor the ritualist for that matter but assassins were specifically addressed in this topic. They seem to lack synergy with the other professions. I tried to make one and I sat down and looked at the skills and then looked at the other professions and I have to admit I was at a loss. I couldn't find a good secondary to go with assassin aside from maybe monk for protection and healing spells. Warrior tactics is another maybe but they don't have the energy pool to support a caster secondary, at least not to any useful degree. Now granted you can use the assassin primary to get criticals but other than that there is very little in the way of synergy between assassins and the core professions. Assassins seem to only have good skill synergy within their own skill set which is just flat out stupid in my opinion. It's alsmost as if ANet wanted to try to put a stop to some of the tactics used in the more effective builds from prophecies, where a primary and secondary skill just meshed to form a magical combo, which again to me is counter-productive. I don't hate assassins I just have no use for them in a group. There is nothing they can do well in my opinion that another profession can't do better.

CHEESE AND RICE!

use the enter key once and a while man!

Tainek · May 17, 2006, 09:35 AM // 09:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

Well honestly I t hink that they sort of overlapped with the assassin and ritualist skills too much. Not an overlap with each other mind you but an overlap in what the professions are designed to do versus the other professions in the game. Ritualist for example. Spirits aren't nearly as useful as mobile minions, at least the ones that actually attack. As for the other spirits a monk can do the same job but better. -Snip-.

Now this just Flat out isnt true, you clearly dont not understand the ritualist class or its skills at all.

A Few Skills:

1: Recuperation

+3 Regen for the ENTIRE team, this includes the ghostly hero, pets, And minions

Assuming that your just an 8 man team, at 16 restoration, that is 6hp a second, on eight people, not too impressive, however over 45 seconds (duration) that adds up to 270 a head, across 8 people that is 2160 Health, or 144 HP per point of energy spent, now bear in mind that Word of healing, at 16 healing, with 10 divine favor, is only 44.8 healing per energy spent, and this is considered highly efficient.

Lets look at a couple of other defensive spirits

Union+ Shelter

These two skills in tandem seriously neuter a spike, now you say, but a prot monk can use protective spirit and guardian to achieive the same, but they can only cover ONE person at a time, these two skills cover the entire team, ensuring your entire team is spike proof

Shelter- all damage is Below 10% hp, lets assume this is 50 hp, union works AFTER shelter, reducing 50 to 35 Damage, basically no member of you team can take more than 35 raw damage while these two spirits are up, a prot monk would have to activly look for the next spike target/target under fire, whereas a ritualist can just place these spirits whenever he needs, and has plenty of time to complete other tasks.

And ive not even touched the Offensive spirits:

Shadow song- this skill effectivly eliminates one warrior/ranger from combat, it re-applys blind constantly, so no RC monk can keep the warrior swinging true, with one spirit you have just eliminated one warrior, often a significant part of a teams offense.

Destruction

this spirit does 150 damage when it pops, thats 1200 damage over the entire enemy team, or 40 Damage per second, even better, it delivers it in one painful spike, which is by far the most efficent means of dealing damage. so this spirit has a similar DPS to a warrior, but it takes up ONE skills on a ritualists bar

And to move these offensive spirits? simple, use draw spirit to keep them in range

Theres plenty more i can choose out, dont start me on the spirit "soothing"

Dont badmouth a class you clearly know Nothing about

baz777 · May 17, 2006, 10:24 AM // 10:24

As has been said previously, a good balance usually makes a good team.

Personally I’m always pleased to see a Mesmer in a team, awesome in PVP and underrated in PVE.

Ritulist, (I have a level 18 at the moment), have an easy time getting into teams as there is, once again, an apparent shortage of monks, (although they deserve a place on their own merits).

As for Assassins I’ve yet to see one in action that does not want to stand there and tank, and subsequently be the first to die. I’m sure there are lots of good Assassins out there doing a fine job, I’ve just not seen one yet. If I join a group with 2/3/4 Assassins in then I generally leave.

mega_jamie · May 17, 2006, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by afkkiller

There aren't enough good Assassins that use teleporting skills to make
picking up a random Assassin worth the risk since they aren't even needed.

Then ask the Assassin if hes playing teleport skills, people just need their hand held in figuring it out. I play a A/Mo, why, not because I think Breeze can help me tank, but becasue Rebirth/Ressurect is everybodies firend. But wait, I'm an assassin, surely a res skill is useless, I would die too early to use it....

I dont! simple as that, I rarely die when I have a human group, henches are different becasue they dont attack well unless your in the fray too, you cant tele ouit without the warriors turning heel too.

Simply ask your A/* what sorta build they have, I tend to play with a 3 hitter combo that takes out most squishies in one. return or recall, the assassin healer spell, res spell, mend ailment - to knock off blind, and an elite.

The elites i alter between depend on the types of groups ive had in the area before. Yes it took me a while to figure out how to play the assassin, but only becasue it took so long to get human groups, I've played arbotone with a PuG where i was the only player that didnt die, 3 zins, 1 mo, 1 ra, 1 rit, a mes and a warrior i beleiv was the team.

Yes I agree, assassins are played terribly in PvE by sadly the majority of the population that used ot be a W/Mo naruto fanboy and now insists of tanking their assassin through the game. But a few of us, those that have never been comfortable in owning a W/Mo, ( i have W/R) can play an A/* combo very well, and are useful in most teams.

Just like you get the occasional dumb Monk, Mes, Ranger, Ritualst, Warrior, etc etc etc, you get your more than occasional dumb Assassin, why, because they have a cooler appeal than a warrior, and dumb people tend to play the melee classes in games really really badly.

But to keep in topic, and not just have to defend assassins again. I wouldnt say any one class is worse than another, I played a Mesmer once, dint get out of pre-searing, why, because I wasnt in the mood for that class a tthe time, I have my third ranger now, cos i kept getting bored / wanted a Canthan one.

And I think all classes have a use, depending on their build, in a party.

AxeMe · May 17, 2006, 11:49 AM // 11:49

I don't think there is any particular hate for Sins, it's just that - and I'm only talking about the ones you usually find in a PUG - the track record is pretty bad.

It's impossible - when forming a PUG - to tell a useful Sin from one that will be a liability. So most groups avoid them.

I don't think this amounts to any sort of profession hate or prejudice. It's just common sense.

My guess is that since the skill set of a Sin leads to quick strikes and retreats - as other posters have noted - its a class that fits in better with PvP and with organized guild PvE groups, where there's the ability to learn how to use the special skills to the group's advantage.

There are plenty of ways for them to be a powerful asset to any group, it's just that it takes some practice and coordination to make those tactics work.

It's hard enough to coordinate the activities of more all-purpose professions in a PUG. So it's not some universal flaw in the people who play the profession, it's a flaw in how PUGs work (and that won't change) and in the lack of coordination in 90% or more of PUGs.

julienp · May 17, 2006, 11:55 AM // 11:55

There will always be "professionists", I started playing Prophecies with a Ranger and a Mesmer, now in Factions I made an Assassin ... It can be annoying, but most of the game can easily done with henchman.

Take The Deep for example, just because the group has to split in four teams of 3 people in the *first* part of the mission, people claim you need 4 Warriors, 4 Monks and 4 Damagers to beat the mission, nevermind that you only split up for 1/12 of the mission.

Oh and proffessionists are nothing new to GW, somebody pointed out how the same is true in DAoC and I can tell you it's the same story in World of Warcraft.

felinette · May 17, 2006, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by baz777

As for Assassins I’ve yet to see one in action that does not want to stand there and tank, and subsequently be the first to die.

My assassin has only died 11 times so far. Didn't die once during the Vezunah mission. The other assassin dropped after racking up 60% DP in the first area. Still, I don't like being in a group with more than one or two assassins either, when I'm playing something else, since most do suck at the moment.

The game has always been "professionist". There are players who don't understand the value of certain professions, like mesmers. Then there are players who are convinced (usually erroneously) that you have to have a particular team make-up to beat a mission (the ones spamming GLF 2 tanks, 1 mm, 1 nuker, 2 monks...).

Seissor · May 17, 2006, 12:19 PM // 12:19

Ok speaking PvE Mesmers (poor bastards) really have it hard to find a team. It's not AS bad now in factions, but its still a prob. Rangers were often passed over for tanks a while back, thats stopped thanks to LEEEROOOY! wammos, now rangers are more valued.

But our dear assassin friends are now at the bottom of the invite list. Most assassins suck, but yes some adept players can use them wisely.

But most ppl LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEROOOOOOY! with them. -.-

Rits seem to have made an ok transistion into PvE from my observations, but others may notice different.

VGJustice · May 17, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by afkkiller

Rangers are nicer for that with interrupts and range so they don't do anything
stupid like going up messing up aggro and dying.

Incorrect.

I play a melee Ranger, and, much like the Assassin, when this is played correctly it doesn't "mess up aggro" and only idiots die in the first volley. I'm also starting to play an Assassin, and I'm learning to use the tools that they have available. I'd like to see a Warrior TRY to deal the kind of sudden spike damage a well equiped Assassin is capable of. Oh, and after I'm done blasting one target, I just kill Recall and now I'm next to the monk, waiting for my next target of opportunity.

And, for cripes sake, the game's only been out for a month! Give it some time already, almost no one knows how to play an Assassin yet (myself included).

As for class descrimination, it'll always be there. Smart players look for the best fit for a role or how to best use what is available, bad players are second class blind.

Sanji · May 17, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

You don't have to be an English major to think a big block of text is unsightly.

Keji_Pelk · May 17, 2006, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Lol, I know what you mean. In Prophecies I made a mesmer and the desert stopped me. It's hard enuf to get a group there let alone get in one as a mes. I finished the game with guildees and unlocked all skills but it was rough. I use assassins in my groups but only use mesmers on some missions.